Vincent
Ok, well, here we go, I’ll say something introductory and then we can assume that whatever we’re saying, or a cleaned up version of what we’re saying, will end up reproduced on MazeCast. Or maybe that was the introductory statement. In any case, I have a hard time making it to MazeCast episodes nowadays, and I missed the last one, in which you had a good, long conversation with Sara. That was the most enjoyable episode I’ve watched in as long as I can remember, and I was sorry to have missed it.
The Hammer
Next time!
Vincent
Hopefully! I think you wanted to talk to me about my one blog post on MazeCast.com, and…well, I’m not sure I had that much to ask you that you didn’t get around to with Sara, though I can obviously talk general Maze stuff with just about anybody forever.
The Hammer
Can you summarize your method for determining if the solution to a puzzle (and the puzzle itself) is valid?
Vincent
I don’t think I had a method for determining whether a solution is valid; what I suggested in that blog post was more of a way of thinking about them than a clear cut test for solutions. But the main idea is that people are too willing to embrace wacky interpretations of Maze, and justify them as plausible because the publisher-verified solutions to Maze are wacky; the problem is that Manson’s puzzles are wacky in a particular way that’s different from the way that users’ wacky solutions are.
The Hammer
Very true.
Vincent
Namely, that in the main puzzles of the book, Manson takes a desired message/solution, and puts it through comprehensible transformations, but ends up with something you can’t effectively backtrack from, which leaves the puzzle practically unsolvable. But what users typically do is create puzzles that require wacky leaps of logic to go from the desired solution to the puzzle.
The Hammer
I agree.
Vincent
So what I suggested was starting with what you think Manson was trying to say, and then detailing the steps he would have gone through to arrive at the puzzle. And if it involves some kind of really bizarre or metaphorical moon logic, then I would be very suspicious of its authenticity.
The Hammer
I think I’m in the minority, but I am POSITIVE that there isn’t a distinct puzzle in every room cluing you into the “correct” room.
Vincent
I certainly think you’re correct about that, and I don’t think you’d have many dissenters but for White Raven’s claims to the contrary.
The Hammer
Tell me about White Raven. Was he just a liar?
Vincent
I don’t think so, and I hate to keep railing on my disagreements with him because I feel like I just keep heaping criticism on this guy who worked very hard to drum up interest in Maze, and is responsible for us having this little community, and he did some amazing things. And he certainly had contact with Manson. But, without doing a deep dive through his messages and the whole history of our interactions with the Abyss, I think it’s overwhelmingly likely that White Raven thought that Manson had confirmed aspects of his Maze interpretations that Manson did not mean to confirm. And, to put it plainly, that were wrong.
The Hammer
I thought so.
I may have lost my Manson letters. If so, I can’t imagine how as I am very organized.
Vincent
Maybe they were stolen by a burglar with great taste.
The Hammer
That’s a very focused burglar.
Do we know for sure that the “second” puzzle is the identity of the guide?
Vincent
No.
We don’t know much of anything, but–well, keeping in mind that I think White Raven is honest but mistaken, I’m willing to believe that unambiguous statements he claims Manson made are probably correct. Manson did say that there was another large-scale puzzle in the book that no one to his knowledge had discovered. WR did not think this was the Guide puzzle, because he thought he had found the Guide puzzle. But given that WR’s Guide puzzle is almost certainly a bit of gobbledygook mixed with some interesting observations, there could still be a Guide Puzzle in here on the scale of the Riddle of the Path.
But it could be anything!
The Hammer
Do you think that “in sly” directing you to the face with a bull in it is intended?
Vincent
No. Those letters in the title page image are real, and have to mean something, but I don’t think it makes sense that Manson would use “in sly” to direct us to a room that uses the word “sly” in the text.
There may be some correspondence there, but I don’t think that’s a solved puzzle.
I also don’t think that face has a bull in it.
The Hammer
I agree. I think that if there was a face with a bull it would larger and more conspicuous.
Vincent
More conspicuous at least! Some people see the bull there, some people don’t. I’ve shown it to a number of people who have no knowledge of Maze and the majority of them think it’s crazy to say that’s a bull’s head.
The Hammer
I wrote to Manson’s physical address via snail mail. Do you think that there is another way to get a hold of him?
Vincent
Yes, but not that we have. David Gentile used to email with Manson until Manson told him to ask his questions through White Raven, and White Raven used to talk to him on the phone.
I think we may have sleuthed up his phone number at some point, but I don’t think Manson would appreciate a phone call out of the blue.
The Hammer
Understandable. I recently wrote him again. We’ll see.
Any hypothesises on the true nature of the second puzzle?
Vincent
Not really! If I had to just nakedly speculate, I’d at least guess that it’s in the Trap. There’s not much worth telling the reader at that point other than that they’re trapped, and we’ve found a lot of clues that say just that, but there’s a lot of other stuff in there that I don’t think is all just reiterating that you’re trapped–and I’m not sure what else they might be saying.
The Hammer
I think that a lot of the smaller puzzles are designed to distract the reader from the real solution.
For example, all the rooms with objects starting with the same letter are to make you less suspicious of Room 15.
Vincent
That could be true…it’s also extraordinarily unfair!
The Hammer
I STILL cannot figure out the PUNCH/STETHOSCOPE thing. Maybe it’s just random.
Vincent
I doubt that much is actually random, just because the way that Manson generates imagery from phrases is so easy to do, and could be so hard to decode, that I’m more inclined to think he chose his images for reasons that are just inscrutable.
The Hammer
Here’s a big one. In the text, the guide says that there are 190 rooms, but I count 188 (even counting the hidden door to Room 17). Is my count right? If so, should we be looking for the hidden room?
Vincent
Oh, right, you asked about that before and I still haven’t bothered to recount. You want me to take a minute to do that now?
The Hammer
Now, or, if it takes too long, later.
Vincent
Already started! Give me a few minutes
I get 190
not counting the gate
The Hammer
The gate is supposed to be one of the 190.
Are you saying that you get 192 and I get 188?
Vincent
That sounds like where we are!
By the way, this was something we asked Manson about during one of the sessions where White Raven took questions from us to Manson. Well, I guess that means White Raven asked Manson about it, then. But anyway, WR’s summary of Manson’s answer is on the Abyss. Let me try to dig it up here…
Man, it’s so hard to find anything you want in the comments on the Abyss
The Hammer
This is why I suggested the wiki!
Vincent
Yeah, although, the Abyss should probably have Manson’s (summarized) remarks displayed more prominently
Now I’m all invested in finding this thing! I guess I should probably just give it up.
The Hammer
We can come back to it.
Vincent
Let me ask you this: What do you think is the most productive thing we could do to find out any more real things in Maze? (I hate to say “solutions” or “puzzles” because I’m not sure the messages in there are exactly that I’m not even sure they’re messages necessarily. So I just say “things.”)
The Hammer
The wiki is a big help. We can filter out the noise.
One thing I need to add to the wiki is sub-category “Puzzle Type.” Perhaps if we are thinking about the tools that Manson uses we can better find the remaining puzzles.
Also, I am trying to reach the man himself.
Vincent
I’m skeptical that Manson is going to give out information as freely as he did the last time you got a letter from him, but it would be nice if he at least clarified that the general Abyss outlook is not accurate.
What do you see the wiki leading to, though? I think it’s kind of interesting to catalog recurring themes and objects and whatnot, but I don’t know how that’s going to ultimately lead to a new insight. Though it could; again, we just know too little about what’s going on in the book to say what might be meaningful.
And maybe there is just a pattern to where things appear.
The Hammer
I need to get going, so we’ll end it there.
Vincent
Ok. Well, thank you for your time!
Here, finally: http://www.intotheabyss.net/manson/comment-page-3/#comment-15099